Dreamers & Doers Episode 12 with Craig Patterson and Janet Schijns - #SaveTheChannel
Craig Patterson: Welcome to the Aryaka Dreamers and Doers podcast series. Within this series, we invite thought leaders from all over the globe to engage in candid and thoughtful conversations. By the way, I'm Craig Patterson, your host, Channel Chief here at Aryaka, and Head of Sales.
Today, I'm joined by a very special guest. She's a multiple award-winning tech disrupter and influencer. She's the founder of the “Tech World's Half', which is dedicated to the advancement of women in technology. She is a former executive from Verizon, and she's now the founder and CEO of the JS Group. It's my absolute pleasure and honor to introduce you to Janet Schijns.
All right. Janet, thank you so much for joining me today on the Aryaka Dreamers and Doers podcast. By the way, it's really hard, Janet, to fit everything in. You've done a ton in terms of your accomplishments, your awards, your recognition, your leadership, your expertise. You're amazing.
Janet Schijns: Thank you.
Craig Patterson: It's hard to jam all that into an intro. Do you mind spending a minute talking a little bit about yourself, really share with us what you're dreaming about, and share with us what you're doing to Save the Channel, which you're very passionate about.
Janet Schijns: I am very passionate about Save the Channel. And everybody always asks me, 'Why Save the Channel?' And it's because depending on what boardroom you're in, the conversation always comes up that maybe some technology company should cut out the channel or lessen what they pay the channel or do something like that. So that's why Save the Channel is our three word mission statement at JS Group.
I lead the JS group. I was the channel chief at Verizon and Motorola and EVP at Office Depot. Like you mentioned, the industry has been so kind to me and given me all kinds of great awards. But the thing I'm most proud of in the industry is just myself and my team's work to make sure that the channel remains the lifeblood of the technology go-to-market. That truly is what's important to us is that we're always looking for ways, and by the way, lots of new entrants in the channel - I'm sure we'll talk about that today. A lot of change happening in the channel. But it is always my dream, my desire that we be primarily sold through an indirect channel partnership, ecosystem, whatever you want to call it today. That's my dream. That's what I think, how technology works best for end user customers, and how we continue to make the rapid advancements the industry has made in the last few years.
Craig Patterson: I love that. Thanks for sharing, and I love the hashtag, #savethechannel. The whole channel organization would give you a huge high five for all the work you're doing out there. So thank you for that. So obviously, I'm biased, right? I've been in the channel 20 plus years. I love the channel strategy. I love the people in the channel. And we, here at Aryaka, we believe the channel is the premier preferred route to market in terms of how companies really want to buy today. Talk to me about your thoughts around the evolution of the enterprise market embracing the channel. Are you seeing more and more companies work through a channel partner? And then one myth that I continue to hear is that the channel is more transactional in nature, not really positioning in larger accounts, more complex solutions. Give me your thoughts around the trends, and also the types of customers that are embracing the channel.
Janet Schijns: It so funny, I'm going to start with that transactional comment. So there are channels that are transactional, and the job you have to be done by the channel is transactional. Those are still very valid channels, hardware, we think about some of the things where people need what they need, maybe in their local community and small businesses. As a big vendor, you don't want to have to service them. So when people say transactional like it's a dirty word, it's not, because many times that transactional channel also now includes marketplaces, which many large enterprise procurement groups are saying you have to have your solution in the marketplace, which is also a channel. But the trend we're seeing is more and more companies using channels and more and more partners being involved in enterprise, government, even mid-market deals.
And so in the old days, you had kind of one partner would lead the deal almost like a general contractor when solutions were simpler. When networks were networks and there wasn't software defined everything, it was a little easier. Now, there's multiple experts many times in the same deal, and many of them are influencers or non-transacting partners. And we're starting to see more and more of this where a partner may be in the deal and not be someone who's transacting, just by the term transactional, non-transacting partner. Maybe a consultant, maybe a digital MarTech agency or a marketing agency. We're seeing a lot of folks that are running e-comm, for example, websites coming in, and they're an influencer in the deal. This world where we used to talk about partners, maybe they were transactional, then we talked about the ecosystem. Now it's basically become a megacosm.
If you think about a megacosm, it's large, and it's kind of a self-functioning organism. And that's what's happening. These self-functioning organisms are kind of beginning to form in verticals, in specific market sets, in specific geographies, where a group of partners together are able to provide something pretty masterful working with some ISPs and some other vendors and providers to bring what I like to think of as the digital normal to their client.
Craig Patterson: That's great. I appreciate you sharing your feedback. That aligns to what I'm seeing, too, by the way, so a couple data points I'll share with you. So when you look at Aryaka, 92% of all our revenue historically ever sold, guess where it came from?
Janet Schijns: Channel.
Craig Patterson: You got it.
Janet Schijns: You're right on track, Craig, because 91% of deals have a channel partner in them in the industry.
Craig Patterson: That's right. So we're right there, which makes a ton of sense to me. The other thing I see, too, is I see a lot of tech companies now that are really embracing the channel and almost going to market with the channel exclusive strategy. Are you seeing that as well?
Janet Schijns: Yes, and I think it's very, very smart, and I applaud what you guys have done at Aryaka to bring this to light. I think that the days where we thought a direct team alone could sell our solution are quickly going into the rearview mirror. And the biggest reason for that is there's a lot of choice now. So if I'm a customer and you work for, let's just say, Microsoft, because we always talk about Microsoft are one of the biggest in the industry so it makes an easy example. So Microsoft is saying, 'Look, we're adding thousands of non-transacting partners every single month.' And the reason for that is because if you think about it, if a Microsoft direct rep calls on you and says Microsoft's the best answer for you, well, they work for Microsoft. But if a partner calls on you who can sell anything they want, they're perceived as agnostic.
So when they say, 'Listen, this Aryaka solution is the best one', which we all we know it is, but the partners kind of - I'll go back way in time, the Good Housekeeping seal - their kind of seal of approval that says 'No, this is the best one. I looked at everything.' It lets the customer have that feeling that they made the best choice among all of the plethora of choices out there versus when you deal with a direct rep, they're going to sell you what they sell you from their company. I'm seeing a lot more of that where the customers are actually even bringing in a partner sometimes and not transacting through them, just to make sure that that person helps them pick the right solutions in the RFP process or others.
Craig Patterson: What I'm seeing too, obviously, the more strategic companies, the larger companies, they're being asked to do more with less, and so they're bringing in these trusted advisors that really can help shape the direction of the digital transformation. So you pick up your phone, you see all those applications used daily. My experience is the majority of those companies are all leveraging a channel partner today.
Janet Schijns: Me too. And there's so many solutions. Think about just the sheer plethora of solutions in the market. As an IT executive, you can't hope to keep up on that. And so all of these new ISPs that are coming to market, etc., they have to go through the channel to even get a seat at that table and talk about that innovation they could bring.
Craig Patterson: So let's talk about that. You bring up an excellent point. And that's how crowded the space is. If you're a channel partner today, you're sitting out there in the market, there's all these SD-WAN providers, there's all these SASE providers coming at you every single day, and they're telling me how great their solution is, how awesome it is, and how it's life changing. So if you're a provider, you're like Aryaka or in a different part of the industry, how do you stand out in that crowded space? What are some things you can do?
Janet Schijns: I think you need to be a better partner to your partners. You do a great job of that, you and the whole Aryaka team do a great job in understanding that. Look, technically, of course, your solution has to be technically correct and have the right features and the right benefits. And most solutions do. Most solutions at least table stakes have the basic stuff. But what makes you stand out is how good of a partner are you? And many times what these companies think about is how good of a partner are their partners as opposed to how good of a partner am I as the vendor, as the supplier, whatever you want to call yourself, the provider. How do I make it easy for my partners to sell my solution, to get paid or get a discount, depending on how you're going to market on my solution? How do I give benefits that matter to the partners instead of the stale benefits that I just threw in my program because everybody else had them? And quite frankly, the partners use none of them. They don't care about them. How do I do things to help them stimulate demand? How do I do things to help them get their staff trained? How do I do things that help the partner and I'm a better partner? That's how you stand out. The folks that stand out are the great partners and that's why you always stood out. That's why you and I have been friends for a long time. Because you do what's good for the channel, and in turn the channel does what's good for you.
Craig Patterson: Exactly. No, I love that answer because I think when you look at what matters most it's that partner experience. Some companies take their eye off that ball and they start thinking about what's best for them and how they can drive more profitable revenue.
Janet Schijns: And then they throw a bunch of spiffs at things, thinking it'll overcome the fact that the partner can't even figure out their commission report or their discounting strategy or that it took six weeks to get an order quoted. And that doesn't do anything other than get their CFO concerned because they keep throwing money at the problem. And so not fixing that partner experience and then not getting your partner program up to date and with the times, and what's really happening, those are the two mistakes I see people making.
Craig Patterson: It's the telco way of doing things, right? Let's introduce all these rules, all these mousetraps in a way to benefit the telco, not the partner. Whereas we're going to flip that on its head. We have here at Aryaka, and I believe it's best for our industry. Remove all those friction points, remove all that red tape, remove all that BS. In the end, it's all the BS - it doesn't benefit the partner - and really become partner-centric. And if you provide that good experience, I think the results will come. Just by doing the right thing, you're going to be more profitable.
Janet Schijns: I agree. 110%.
Craig Patterson: All right. So let's talk about some other things happening in our industry. There's a lot of things happening, a lot of consolidation. We're seeing a lot in the master agent space, we're seeing these new super agents emerge, we're seeing a lot of private equity come into our channel. How do you react to those trends? What do you think happens in the future?
Janet Schijns: So the height of the private equity money in valuations was November of 2021. We're already starting to come down the slope a little bit on valuations. It doesn't mean that they're not still decent valuations, but the height of it was kind of the end of last year. We're seeing now the multiples come down a little bit. I think that's going to slow the consolidation a little. It won't cease it, but it'll slow it just a little bit to maybe a little more palatable rate. But the consolidation is going to happen. If you look at what happened in IT distribution, you ended up with just a few meaningful IT distributors, you know, TD SYNNEX, Ingram, and then a few other folks like DNH and Arrow and such.
The same is going to happen in what we have traditionally called the master agent, and the industry is now calling the technology solution broker, technologist use and distributor. They're going to consolidate down to a few meaningful ones as well. And this gives an opportunity for two things. One, it gives an opportunity for the super agents to go direct. It's what happened in the IT industry, even though some of those super partners, if you think of them as CDW, let's use for an example, may in fact buy, or an Insight or Optiv, may in fact buy through distribution, they get back end rebates, they have a relationship direct with the vendor, etc.
I think we're going to see the same evolution happen in the telco space, traditional network agent space. You'll see some super agents rise up, they may still use the technology solution broker for transactional purposes, but they will have a direct relationship and do direct marketing with the vendor supplier. And I think that change is already happening. We're seeing groups of super agents start to get together and talk about it. And the reason for that in many ways is because they're a little frustrated with the lack of demand generation that's been coming as-a-service.
When we think about that, we think about what's the most important thing to those super agents. It's retention and new customers. They've got retention buttoned up, right? They need some marketing help, especially digitally with new customer acquisition.
Craig Patterson: I think you hit the nail on the head there for sure that answer and I agree with you. I mean, you look at the position we're in, we're a smaller provider focused around doing a couple things amazingly well, but it's very hard for us to pay to play with all these different master agents. I think consolidation is good. I agree with you. I think that will continue. And I agree with the points around these super agents. And obviously, we're seeing some of them go direct already. There's been some of that news, as of late. So I think that'll continue as well.
So looking at other trends beyond the super agents, the consolidation, what are some other key trends you're seeing in the market today?
Janet Schijns: We're seeing entrance of new partners and the effective channel programs are addressing that. So we're seeing entrance of what I'm going to call marketing technology or e-marketing firms, so firms that are doing websites, intent-based marketing, AI-based marketing, etc., AI based customer service, who are having an increasingly large voice at the table with enterprise clients. Because they're putting in the number one way that you're shopping or contacting with that firm, they're also starting to insist on certain technologies being used for unified communication, for security, for network performance, etc., because of course, if their website doesn't perform because the network is slow, that's not good for their business. So they've become an increasing voice. In fact, if you look at some of the sales last year, for some of the ISPs, they were a bigger market than the traditional agent, VAR, MSP, etc. So that's one trend.
Second, we're seeing a big shift of the MSPs starting to become CSPs, so Cloud Solution Providers. So everything they're now selling is in the cloud, all recurrent revenue. MSPs are starting that march over to an intersection and recurrent revenue with the agents. And I think in the next two or three years, we're going to see a little blurring of the industry lines, the agents who pick up some services, who begin to do service, who begin to do a little more advanced help for their clients other than just tell them, you know, 'Do these', will do well. And those who don't, I think will be supplanted by their IT counterparts, who are MSPs and CSPs. So we're seeing it. We're seeing great folks in the agent network start to acquire IT MSPs or VARs, start to add IT services. So the smart ones are making that move.
Craig Patterson: I agree with that as well. I mean, we're seeing some of those similar things here at Aryaka. So we're seeing new partner types, like you talked about, emerge into the channel. So we're starting to get some new relationships going, which is very, very exciting. Especially globally, do you look at the things we're seeing globally around channel, now that it's getting out of the infancy in terms of its traditional telcos agent side? We're starting to see some of that become a little bit more mature. We're seeing more relationships happening throughout Europe on the channel side. I love the comment around the MSPs, and I think there's a huge opportunity here. There's opportunity for these MSP partners to create more value, create new revenue streams.
Janet Schijns: I agree. They have to get to the network layer, at least a software defined network layer. They have to. Everything is so dependent on it now since everything's in the cloud. When they were doing things that were prem-based, it was different. But most of the stuff is hybrid or in the cloud now, so network performance really matters.
Craig Patterson: It does matter. And you look at some new dashboards, some new co-management functions that are coming out in the market - have to kind of use what we're doing, right? We've got this AppAssure portal where MSP partners can do co-management for their customers. They can log in, they can look at traffic real time, they can prioritize it, they can control it, they can optimize it into like 3,500 different SaaS applications. So it gives them the ability to provide a better experience, number one, but number two, create opportunities to monetize that piece of the service.
Janet Schijns: And that's what it's all about, them monetizing their services, another dollar or two for every user or another $5 for every user. They just keep marching up the dollars per user, and that's how they make their money. So add more apps, add more services.
Craig Patterson: Yeah. And I think we'll continue to see those next generation services be deployed in these portals that are purpose built for our partners. And so I'm excited about that and excited about what the future entails.
So let me switch gears on you. Let me talk about something I know you're very passionate about. So you've been a big influencer around the movement around DEI, creating opportunities for women and others, the channel. Talk to me about that, what you're seeing, talk to me about the change that you're seeing the market take and actually start to move towards, and talk to me about your not-for-profit, ‘Tech World's Half'. Give me a little bit of vision there and share some thoughts around that mission.
Janet Schijns: Listen, we have so much work to do in this area in the industry. It's just traditionally been a guy's industry. I've been very lucky and blessed to have all of you guys help me when I was sitting at the table alone, and you kind of all take me under your wing and say, 'It's okay, it's okay. Sit with me, like we're fine.' But being alone at the table has let us lose a lot of women. And so about a decade ago, I was at an event, and there was a statistic shared that women leave the tech industry at 3x the rate of men. So not only do we have an issue bringing women into the industry, which all the STEM things are about and college opportunities and training, but once we got them, only 28% of women who had a technical degree or a technical background or technical job were still in the industry. They left.
So it just struck me, and I was sitting with a group of women in the industry and I said, 'Alright, we're going to try to fix this.' So we started Tech Worlds Half, and I also concurrently joined CompTIAs women, Alliance of Channel Women, The Channel, everybody I could find, I said okay. But what we said in Tech Worlds Half is we're just going to be a group of people who when you've had it and you want to leave, we're not going to let you leave the industry. If it's your current boss and there's coping strategies or you need a new job or whatever you need to do, we're going to help, because we can't afford to have you leave the industry.
Our whole goal is just, like, keep you in. So we're about 3,000 members strong. Some of the biggest names in the industry are members, women will post things. In fact, my favorite Tech World's Half story is I had a woman who posted, and she said, “I'm so tired of this.” She was at a big event. I was at the same event. She goes, “17 guys in my company and me are having dinner. I'm so tired of this.” And I excused myself from the dinner I was at which was wrapping up, and I said, “Where are you?” on Facebook Messenger. And she told me the restaurant and I went in and sat down and said, “Hi, can I join you guys for dinner?” And of course the partner was like, “Is that Janet Schijns? That's Janet Schijns.” Like, “Yeah, I'm coming to have dinner.” And she said, “Oh, my gosh, because I was so close to quitting.” And then the conversation just flipped at the table. And even the guys were saying, “Yeah, that is uncomfortable. She is sitting here alone. Why are we like that?”
So we're really trying to have those conversations. And we're launching a program in 2023 called Dinner Alone. So one guy at the table with seven women. Men can have the experience of what the conversation feels like. And so we're going to be doing that at a bunch of events. We'll invite you to one. I know you'll be great at it. You won't have a problem, because you're really good in that kind of group. But we think it does paint the picture of how uncomfortable it can be.
And then finally, and I think most importantly, I just continue to invest in: how do we have the conversation about diversity overall, whether it's male, female, whether it's color, religion. It doesn't matter what it is. Diversity of thought is what brings the industry forward. And that's why I push for diversity. It's not a check the box, get this number of people. It's, the better diversity we have in thought, the better the industry does. And that's why I'm so passionate about it.
Craig Patterson: That's amazing. I applaud you for all the work you're doing, and I've got your back.
Janet Schijns: I know you do, and actually not to embarrass you, but you've gotten my back a few times, because industry events can get a little where people have had too much to drink, and you've come to the rescue to myself and several women where you kind of intercepted and been like, “Hey, okay let's go over here.” And believe me, it is talked about and noted.
Craig Patterson: There's a good core of people that truly care.
Janet Schijns: Don Deloach is another one. He's always been. Jim Glackin is another one, these guys that you know will actually speak up.
Craig Patterson: So here's the lesson. So all the listeners, you don't have to accept this. If you're not comfortable, don't accept it. There's a lot of people out there that have your back - Janet, myself and others. Reach out, have a conversation with us. We're here to help to turn things into something positive.
So Janet, you know that I'm very passionate about hockey, right?
Janet Schijns: Me too.
Craig Patterson: I live, breathe, eat, sleep hockey, my kids play high level hockey. I travel all over North America on this hockey journey, and I really appreciate that about you. That was one thing that I learned about you very early on is you've lived the same life.
Janet Schijns: I did. When my son was growing up, he was a AAA hockey goalie. Worst thing in the world to be, by the way, in sports as a parent is the goalie mom.
Craig Patterson: I was going to say hockey parents are crazy to begin with, number one.
Janet Schijns: Goalie mom, awful.
Craig Patterson: And then there's the goalie parents, which are on a whole different level.
Janet Schijns: Whole different level. I used to stand like way up in the stands and just stand up there and talk to no one until the game was over. I always say I really believe hockey raised my son in a way that I'm not sure I could have done alone. The discipline, just the overall politeness and drive to do good and be good. It is different in hockey than it is in other sports. My son played some other sports. I saw it. It just isn't the same. I truly think that hockey and then golf, because then he played golf through college, helped to shape him into a better guy, a better person.
Craig Patterson: I think there's a lot people can learn from the wonderful, the best game in the world that is hockey.
Janet Schijns: Best game in the world that is hockey.
Craig Patterson: Best game – go Avalanche, by the way.
Janet Schijns: Go Devils. Sorry. I know you guys are better than us, much better than us, but you've got to stay loyal to your team.
Craig Patterson: I'm actually working on a keynote, too, how business can be better by learning from hockey - what it takes to be successful in hockey.
Janet Schijns: I love that. I love that you said that. I just had this conversation with someone, and I said to them, 'You know, it might be time for you to drop your gloves'. And they were like, 'What?' And I'm like, 'Oh, hang on. It's a hockey thing. Sometimes you've got to drop your gloves. You've just got to get into it and have the tough conversation and not just skate around.'
Craig Patterson: That's the key, the tough conversation. Is there any memory that stands out from that timeframe on that hockey journey?
Janet Schijns: So my son was playing AAA, and he was playing for frankly a coach who wasn't a very good guy. And they were at a tournament, And by the way, you should never play for a coach that isn't a good guy. Lesson learned. They were at a tournament, and the other team only had one goalie and the goalie got sick. And so they were going to forfeit the game. The coach was all happy because that means we win and move on to the next thing. And my son was like, 'I think that's awful.' And he skated over and knocked on the ice. And I went down and said, “What?” And he goes, “I'm going to offer to play for the other team, probably going to get me thrown off this team.” And he was only 11. And he said, “But I'm going to do it anyway,” he said, “because it's not right. We all traveled here.” It was big travel. It was a big expense to the family.
And he goes, 'We all traveled here. And this coach is just so nasty.' I was like, “Go ahead.” So I see my son, jersey off, skates over to the other thing. Okay, go for it you want. He talked to the referee before he banged on the ice to meet the referees. Referee said, “Fine with me.” He went over. Coach said, “Yeah, get on.”
He ended up playing for that team for another seven years. He played for that coach and played for that team that he joined at that tournament. And what it taught me was one, my son was a good human. But it also was, I think, a memory of me thinking - he played hockey since he was like, six - that's what gave him the backbone to make that decision, ready to say, “You know what? It's not right. There's 16, 17 kids on this other bench. They traveled at great expense to this tournament in Canada, and they're never going to get to play a game. I'm not going to let that happen.” And my son is now a very successful leader. He has his own company. He's done exceptionally well. And I think that backbone he got in hockey is what made the difference. And that's the memory to me, where I was like, 'Oh, he's going to be like CEO or something. He'll be fine. I ceased worrying about my son after that day.'
Craig Patterson: That's awesome. I think there's so much people can learn from that, for standing up for what they believe in, for sure, and not being afraid to push back when they're uncomfortable and people don't agree with you.
Janet Schijns: And understanding that competition is a challenge. It's not the enemy.
Craig Patterson: Exactly. So last question here, Janet, is there any advice or any channel hack you'd like to share with our listeners?
Janet Schijns: I have two, so sorry, guys. The first one is, there's a definite lack of sales and marketing talent right now in the industry. It's an issue. I'm hearing from partners every single day that they can't hire enough salespeople. They can't find or hire enough marketing people. And so the time for the vendors, suppliers, providers, whatever you want to call yourself, to provide augmented demand generation, sales assistance, etc., for the partners is now. You can differentiate yourself, you can outsource it to firms, like the JS Group or whoever you like working with, but you have to help your partners, because if you don't, their funnels are drying up not because they don't want to sell but because they don't have enough marketing people to go out there and generate and stimulate demand. So super important to invest in that. So that's hack one.
Hack two for the partners - so for the partners listening, the reality is about 70% of leads are now being developed on social media, through what's called ‘social selling'. If you don't know what social selling is, if you don't know how to pick salespeople who have a good social selling score, good social selling skill-set, you need to learn. And it's very, very important. Those partners who are going to succeed are going to have high-performing websites, good search engine optimization, search engine marketing, and salespeople who can do social selling. Those are the ones who are going to succeed and go forward. And so if you're listening and don't know what social selling is about, feel free to reach out to Craig or I. Both of us could tell you what it's all about.
Craig Patterson: I love that. Thanks for those channel hacks. By the way, this has been an awesome hour for me spending time with you. I really appreciate all the feedback on the trends that we're seeing in the channel. Just good stuff there. I love the work you're doing around saving the channel and promoting DEI and helping the women that feel uncomfortable out there to feel comfortable - really helping to kind of get them into a good mind frame.
Janet Schijns: Thank you. Well, we love what you're doing, too. So we hear from the partners so keep it up. Keep pushing for those partners. Aryaka's got a lot of love out in the channel right now.
Craig Patterson: There's a lot of love out there, a lot of good people doing really, really good work. Thanks for all the channel hacks around social selling - I think that's a huge piece of what's important in the channel. I think people can learn from what you're doing. I think there's a lot of good resources out there. So there's only one thing left to do, Janet. We've got to close this podcast out with a lot of energy. So I'm going to give you a little 1, 2, 3 and then I want you to close it down with a 'Let's go', but I want you to be loud. I want you to be full of energy. Sounds good?
Janet Schijns: Done.
Craig Patterson: All right. Here we go. One, two, three.
Janet Schijns: Let's go and Save the Channel!
Craig Patterson: Let's go and Save the Channel! There you go. Janet Schijns, amazing person, channel influencer, awesome work.
